What's the Merit in Children's Sports

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Episode Transcription:

Taylor: [00:00:00] I never thought when you and I started a podcast that we would be here talking about sports. Nevertheless, do a whole Yeah. Episode on it. But here we are. Um, philosophy question, sports. Are they a good model for real life slash education? Yeah, you have, you go, okay. 

Nick: I think it's real life in the sense that it's embodied knowledge.

It's direct action. You have direct feedback, you're testing out new ideas, you're testing yourself out in new ways, and you're getting, yeah, you're just getting immediate feedback, you know, so, and. In non-practical applications or non-practical, uh, settings, like how the school system usually is. You're in a classroom, you're listening to someone who supposedly knows everything, they're lecturing to you and you're learning about this thing Theoretically.

It's [00:01:00] hard to remember what's useful and what's not useful, and it's hard to find out what's relevant to what's going on to, you know, like with sports, things are relevant. You know, it's like if you want to win, the coach is gonna tell you like, here are the different ways of how you can get better, how your whole team get better, how you fit into the piece that is the larger team.

It just seems very relevant and direct and immediate. 

Taylor: I think sports. It contains the socialization that school thinks it does. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Like, it, it really truly is, like you said, it's like testing things out. It's, you're flowing together, you're learning how you fit in a whole system, and then if one part of the system isn't working, you people react to it.

You know, there's like instant feedback, like you said. Um, it's great. Um. Some backstory, like the reason we're talking about this is 'cause Nick and I, um, are coaching two soccer teams this spring, and it has been really, really fun. Especially [00:02:00] the eight year olds. Like, wow, we, we've, we've coached three, 4-year-old soccer before it's really, really cute.

Mm-hmm. But when you see the older kids get out there, first of all, their personalities are awesome to, to see them work together and then. You're just like the children are coming forth at that age, you can just like really tell who has what strengths. It's just already really apparent. And so you have the children who are not afraid to, to run and kick it in the goal and the children who need more time to, to think and, um.

React. And so, you know, they're better at defense. And then the goalie, who's, I think that's like the most fearless position. First of all, you're the only one, you know? Mm-hmm. It's like if the goal, if the ball goes in the goal, it's on, it feels, feels like it's on you. Yeah. So that's like a lot of mental pressure.

It's a lot of focus. You do have time, I guess to react, but it's, um, it's a certain personality that can do goalie, also certain body type. It's kind of. [00:03:00] I think we've trended away from like acknowledging what people look like, you know, as a, for diversity. Like, you know, don't acknowledge people's body type.

Don't acknowledge that. It's just like everyone, there's this like lie kind of that we've been told that like everyone has the same abilities if they're all given the same chances, but it's just not true. And I think that we're doing everyone a disservice by thinking that, or saying that people are better.

People are better suited for some physical and mental and emotional. Some people have a different aptitude for certain emotional, physical, social, just things. Than others. It's just, that's not something to be afraid of. It's not something to be like, no, no, no. Don't say that. Like everyone can do everything.

No, we don't want everyone to do everything. And that's kind of the same like public school mindset of like, everyone needs to be on the same level so they all get to the same place. And it's just like not the right way to think of humanity. And I think I've already covered this in like how I feel about, [00:04:00] um, homeschooling being individualized and customized.

You see that in sports, it's kind of, I think, more accepted, like mm-hmm. Everyone just like, there's different positions, baseball, soccer, like each sport has different positions. You kind of just accept that people have different skills and you find ways for those differences to work together. Cohesively school doesn't do that.

Yeah. 

Nick: It's a merit based system. It, it's, it's, you know, like obviously we have the problem with like men and women's sports, but for the most part, sports are. Mostly a merit-based system. And the, the, the fun thing that you and I have been, uh, encountering is as coaches, we get to help set the chess pieces into play.

Mm-hmm. And so, like, we, so like, some kids just volunteer information, just like, you know, I just like, I, I want to be like the guy who goes in and like every play and, uh, you know, sometimes the kid is right, so like mm-hmm. You know, if, if you're volunteering information, you're, I don't know, like, I don't know what the percentage would be, but like.

70 per 70% of the time. You know, if you're volunteering information, [00:05:00] you're probably accurately depicting yourself, you know? Yeah. Because like, it, it takes some courage, you know, to like step up and say those things, but sometimes you, you do, you know, get those people who overestimate their ability or just don't know, you know, just like, well, you know, I was good at this other sport, so I must be good at this sport.

Double click 

Taylor: on that. Yeah. So I. This is really interesting 'cause like what do you think comes first? Like the cart or the horse? Like the chicken or the egg. Mm-hmm. So we have this confidence, like I wanna, I wanna score goals like they have that want to and that confidence. Like, I can do this. And then they do it because they have the confidence.

Mm-hmm. Or they know they can do it so they're confident. It's kinda like both right. 

Nick: Uh, yeah. I mean, when you're talking about like children's sports, you can have someone who's a savant or a polymath who's just good at every sport. As you get older. It's just, it's, it's too difficult. You can't, you can't compete at every sport.

So like we watched that Michael Jordan documentary and I. Michael Jordan was just so good at basketball. He was getting bored, and then [00:06:00] also his dad died and he was sad and he wanted a change in his life, so he switched over to the MLB, right? He couldn't go straight to the pros because even though he had the star power and he's, you know, an athlete physically fit, you know, he's.

Accomplished. And like you would think almost that you would just, just because of the name, you would wanna sign him up for a professional league. But he didn't go straight into the, the professionals. He had to go, he had to do some of the, you know, the normal, uh, paces, uh, underneath. And he had to retrain his whole body.

And, um, he was getting better. He was getting better. But like, would he have ever been the, the dynamo that was Michael Jordan basketball and baseball. We don't really know. Mm-hmm. Um, probably not, especially at that age when he trans. 

Taylor: Why, why do you think not 

Nick: even with confidence? Um, it's just very rare. So like the, like what we talk about with like the Leonardo da Vinci, like polymath kind of thing.

You and I disagree a little bit about how likely that is. So like there was that, [00:07:00] uh, that NASA engineer study where, um. They were, uh, looking at like, you know what, what produces genius? Um, and at the beginning, all these children, they just seemed like they had all this potential to be geniuses. And then like they kept tracking them and the older they got, the more.

The more likely it was that they were not gonna end up to be genius. It was like they just, like, they lost the drive. They lost the curiosity. They were, they weren't exactly losing IQ points. But did they all 

Taylor: have the same parents and teachers? Because I think that's where that gets lost. 

Nick: Well, they couldn't all have the same parents and teachers.

Exactly. That's what I'm trying to say. You know, the people that are around you, 

Taylor: like, if they all started off, you know, I, I think that's, plays a big role in it. People put you down, you know, and you, you give up. Like the more instances you find yourself in as a child where you are, what's the word for it?

Where like you just like. You can't do anything. You just, you have no control, I guess, over your situation. Like self-efficacy? Yeah, like the more that you lose and the more situations you bump up against where you just can't change things, you can't control [00:08:00] things, you just stop. It's like the Pavlov's dogs thing, like, or there's so many experiments like this, like you'll put a electric fence around an animal and they'll try to get out and get, you know.

Buzzed eventually, like you, you can remove the fence and they won't even try anymore. Mm-hmm. We're doing that to children. A lot of children have that situation like, where, and that's why you don't like this, but I like it when our children argue with us. Like I, I, I want them to negotiate. I like that. I like doing that with them.

I like giving them space to, if we say something for me, it's, that's not the end all be all. Especially if they have like a good point. Like if we say, no, we're not doing this. I like it when they say, well, what if, or, well, why not? You know, if they want an answer that's, you know, more descriptive or if they want to find a way to flex around that.

I feel like giving children those opportunities shows them that there aren't walls and I get, I get that there has to be some walls. Mm-hmm. For safety, you know? Yeah. But when they're, when the wall that we [00:09:00] set up. Isn't really safety related, you know, and they can use their creativity to find a way around it.

Not in a sneaky way, but just like negotiating. Mm-hmm. Like, I want them to come up and I want them to have that experience because that's, we are their examples of the real world. Mm-hmm. And if they have that skill, they think, ah, you know, there's, there's a way through everything. I like that. I like that mindset.

I think that makes for good entrepreneurs, for good businessmen, for just good people. Like we can solve problems together, you know? Mm-hmm. So. That's why I do that. I think I've talked to you about that before, but I think that's so important and I think that makes genius. And so when these children you're talking about are maybe have the potential for genius and they lose it.

Hmm. If their parents are not giving them the flexibility or creativity within just daily life. To explore creativity, which is a huge part of genius no matter what you're doing. Mm-hmm. You need to have freedom. If they're not given freedom in that, if they just went to public school, then that can really cut that at the knees.

Um, and did you [00:10:00] watch the same Michael Jordan documentary that I did? Mm-hmm. It was his mindset. I don't think it's just basketball. I think he could do anything he wanted if he had the time. Like I, I think maybe he loses. Maybe he's just exhausted by that point, you know? 'cause he gave everything to basketball and so I don't think that, like if he had time, if we had like five youths, I think that he could spend a whole nother youth.

He could have just rewound time. He could have done baseball, rewind time, he could have golfed. I think whatever he had chosen, he would've been amazing at because it was. His mind, it was his mind. 

Nick: I mean, he played a lot of golf and he wasn't a pro. Um, he spent a lot of time in baseball. Uh, he was an actor.

We could say didn't, you know, didn't top the charts in that, um, wasn't critically what it was, what he 

Taylor: did with the, but the basketball, it was in his eyes, like he was crazy about it. If he had chosen, he just didn't have enough energy to be crazy about something else. Uh, I don't, I really don't 

Nick: it. Sports is an interesting one.

So like, you know, like the Lance [00:11:00] Armstrong thing, like the. Um, before the, the Roys problem, um, he was like, why was he winning so many tours? And there was this thing where, you know, like the, the people who were like examining his body just like, it was like the perfect shape. Like his legs, his femur were the perfect size and length to like, accommodate, you know, the cycling, the, the, the perfect, you know, not the stride, but whatever you would call, you know, the, the pedaling.

Um, he, he just like, for some reason. His body was the perfect aerodynamic, you know, whatever it was, the engineering feat that just would fit into that role. You know, 

Taylor: don't they make custom bikes for each body if they're at that level? Yeah, as I was saying that 

Nick: like there's a, there's give and take with this thing, but like there was, I don't remember all the details with that, but there was something about his, his body type and then, so like, there's also like I, you're 

Taylor: to make the perfect circle, but I feel.

Nick: Yeah, I mean, obviously you adjust the, even like a kid's bike, you adjust the seat. Mm-hmm. But there [00:12:00] was, there was something about it, but, um, it might have, might have been having to do with like proportions, you know? Mm-hmm. Like that the proportions were just right. I don't know. Um, but sorry. In, in sports you don't see the kind of cross sport, um, savant kind of thing that you see with, uh.

Like an Elon Musk type figure, you just, you just don't see it. It's very uncommon. So back before, um, so like, uh, Olympics, you know, that before there was so much specializations, it, so the, we often argue in favor of generalism, but with sports you have to be an expert. You have to be specialized. Because like at, at one point in time you would have, you know, runners doing a variety of different running events, you know, um, or if you were strong or doing different strong man events or whatever.

But there, there was this, there was this idea [00:13:00] that you couldn't beat the four minute mile. It was just widespread global idea. You couldn't do it. And then we started paying, you know, for professional athletes. Professional athletes didn't used to be like, you know, an occupation, but then we made into an occupation and we.

You know, fine tune diet. We fine tuned, you know, like what exercises to do. We didn't just say, yeah, go run a mile every day. And that's like your practice, you know, like we, we got more sophisticated about it. It's a science. Yeah, it's a science and it's specialized and, and then, yeah, and just like, so, like more opportunities are, are, but I mean, the, the likelihood of that becoming your occupation is just so low.

So like that. Our angle with talking about sports today in this podcast is not, you know, like, this could be like your future. This is how you could, like, make money. This could be like a lifelong thing. It's not really about that at all. 

Taylor: You can do whatever you want to. Well, you, yeah. Well, I, 

Nick: so I don't think you can do whatever you want to if you say that, you know, like [00:14:00] literally, can you literally do whatever you want to?

No, you can't literally do whatever you want to. 

Taylor: Okay. But here, I, I think so. And here's what you want to do. Tends to be the thing. Just like we were talking about the kid that raises his hand and is like, I'm offense, I can score goals. He wants to because he thinks he can. Mm-hmm. And he can because he wants to.

And it's this thing. So when I say you do whatever you want to, if someone wants to be a profess professional athlete and they really want it, they will find a way to do that. I'm, I'm pro that I'm pro everyone following their dreams. I think it works. I think it's a lot of people. Um. We will, we'll do what you're kind of doing and just be like, oh, you know, do something more serious.

Like that makes me frustrated. Oh, that's very 

Nick: serious. I, I don't, I'm not, I'm not saying that sports, sports isn't serious, but it's 

Taylor: frivolous. A frivolous pursuit because it's unlikely, so, oh, 

Nick: yeah. No, I'm not saying I, there are a lot of different factors that need to come together specifically for sports.

So like, entrepreneur, just like the, the factors are [00:15:00] very unknown, you know, but like the factors with being a basketball star. A lot of that is kind of known, you know, like, it just like you have to be, there aren't a lot of white people that make it to the very top, like proportionally, like, like you, you just, mm-hmm.

There, there are some, there are some constraints, you know, like it just, 

Taylor: but you have to meet them on your own. So if we had, one of our children said they wanna be a pro basketball player. Mm-hmm. I'm not gonna tell them otherwise. Even though we know that's probably not gonna happen. You can't, you can't set the limit for them because then that sets them up to let other people set limits for them.

And I don't think that's o okay. You know? Mm-hmm. Like, you can't, can't let someone else tell you what you can't do in that sense. Like, you know, so like, we let him try it out. We let them pursue basketball as far as they can, and then at one point they will look around and realize, oh, I'm not that tall. Oh, I'm, I can't, you know?

Mm-hmm. They will. [00:16:00] Organically realize that's not their thing. And I don't think that'll be depressing. I think it'll be like a journey that it's really helpful. I think they can pursue that as far as possible, and they'll learn so much about themselves in that sense. And they'll learn other skills and they'll kind of, it's like, what's that quote that's um, oh, it's about failing and trying, but it's just like.

Every shot. This is kind of silly, but it's just, I had this written on my wall in high school, but it was like every shot, a long shot is a shot that just kept shooting. I don't know, 

Nick: I don't think it was that. That's 

Taylor: not that either. It was like, even if you, there's, there's several, but like one of them, the one I can't think of, one of them that's similar is like, even if you shoot and miss.

If you shoot for the moon and miss, you're still a land among the stars or what? I, yeah. Yeah. Uhhuh. But, but there was another one that was like more accurate to what I'm trying to say, but it's like you're still learn a lot pursuing anything. Mm-hmm. [00:17:00] Even if it's not the thing you end up doing, just having a passion and pursuing it as far as you can, the stuff you learn and like along the way and like the character development that you.

Develop, mm-hmm. Along the way is worth it, and you'll be able to harness that and then apply it to something else. If you realize this isn't the path for you. 

Nick: I don't know. I'm kind of getting back to limitations. I think it's. Interesting and good and gratifying and, um, almost merciful if you kind of learn early on in life, like what your limitations are, that way you can renegotiate with yourself, navigate toward the right thing for you.

And that can be multiple things. Mm-hmm. Like, I don't wanna rule out being a polymath, but a polymath. At its best is like good at is, is not just good, but great at like eight things. But like how many things are there in life? There are thousands, hundreds of thousands of occupations. You know, you, you cannot do it all.

That's what we talked about with the AI episode. So [00:18:00] you have to understand that there are limitations and you know, the likelihood of you being awesome at MLB and the NBA is just very unlikely. Um. I, it hasn't been done. Could it ever be done? Maybe, but um. The, but yeah, like I, it, it, it's been, um, it's been really fun to see, like you were talking about like personalities emerging around, you know, our oldest is seven, but like, it's, it's eight and under league and, um, the personalities are just coming out.

The, the kids are trying so much harder than they were, you know, like at four or five. And I 

Taylor: love them. They're fun. Yeah. 

Nick: It's, it is been a really fun group and, uh, it's been fun coaching them and uh, and yeah, it's just like. The the Whoa book. 

Taylor: Hello. 

Nick: Um, 

Taylor: so let's kind of play with the idea of how the field works and we're gonna talk about soccer, I guess specifically because that's what we're messing with.

But like, [00:19:00] hello. So soccer. If education was run like a sport, what would that look like? It would look like Clifford, the big red dog. 

Nick: What I like about, uh, with that in mind, what I like about, uh, sports with kids at a young age is that is exactly what we've been talking about is not. Seven hours of like boring stuff that might not be relevant or interesting.

It's a focused amount of time where you give your full amount of attention and you go hard and you, you're, you're there, you signed up for the damn thing, you know, like, you know why you're there. You want to, in almost all cases, it's the first cuss 

Taylor: word of our podcast. Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. 

Nick: Um, you, you know, you, you want to be there most likely.

I mean, maybe your parent just signed you up and you don't really wanna be there. But in our experience, you mostly want to be there. We have some four year olds that are really struggling right now, but if you're at, if you're [00:20:00] at, it's just true. They dunno where they're, yeah. Um, that's so funny. But yeah, like once you get past like, you know, four years old, it's, it's understandable.

At four years old for sure. Um, if you're eight years old and you don't know where you are, that's a problem. But if, if, um, so like these eight year olds, they, they want to be there. Uh, they, they have, they don't have like a crushing amount of like peer pressure, but they have some amount of peer pressure.

Like they don't wanna be embarrassed, but you know, like their parents are there, their grandparents are there, people are watching them. They want to succeed. And it's for, it's, it's not for that long of a time. Like I feel like they can pay attention for 45 minutes, you know? Yeah. Like it's a good amount of time.

You're moving your body. It's, it's, um, even as coaches, like it's, it's mentally invigorating. Like you're not exhausted by the end of practice, but it's, it's, uh, it's, it is good. Is it good for all the parties involved? Like it's just, it's a good use of time. Yeah. You know, and like with school often is just like, I [00:21:00] don't know why I am here.

No one's given me a compelling pitch as to why I'm here. Why am I here? So with sports. Uh, like, should you just change everything to like, that doesn't really, really make sense. Like seven hours of sports, like, then it'd become like school, you know, just like maybe you get really fit, but like at, at some point you lose sight of like, why I am here.

Like what, what exactly is the purpose? Mm-hmm. So I do like the, the constraints surrounding, um, soccer. Like, you practice two times a week, it's only four or five minutes, and then you have a game, and then you, and like what we try to do is we try to talk to them about. Um, you know, like, what can they do better?

So like, there's like the immediate feedback, there's real time results, and then we're like doing a replay. We're just kind of like, it's just, it just how life kind of is. You know? Like, it's like, wow, what a novel concept, but that's real life. It just, um, but yeah, just like if, if you're doing it, if you're doing life on purpose, it's kind of like.

[00:22:00] What, you know. Yeah. Sports are, you know, like, and then like at our age is really not, not your and i's age, but like the, the coaching at eight year olds is nice because like we're not yelling at them. It's not that much of a pressure. It's we're gentle coaches. 

Taylor: We're not the yeah, we're not the, we're the only ones like that that I've seen, I guess.

Nick: When, when we were in sports in junior high or elementary, high school, whatever, like that was my entire, you know, sports experience just being yelled at. Mm-hmm. And like, it's, it's motivating to some extent, but it's mostly, it's distracting. 

Taylor: Well, I think it is. 

Nick: Sometimes it's hard. Different personalities respond different way, but like mm-hmm.

It's just like. It doesn't, it doesn't, at the very least, it doesn't promote autonomy. You know? It's like, you know, it is like someone, someone's 

Taylor: thinking for you the whole time. Yeah, 

Nick: yeah, yeah. Which we, you know, like even gently saying, you know, do this, do that. Good job. Like we are still kind of telling them what to do, but for the most part we're trying to feedback 

Taylor: on what they have done.

Nick: Yeah. I guess that's a good way of looking at it. Feedback rather than like. [00:23:00] And, and you can't, and that, that's like something that coaches need to realize, like is you can't think for someone as they're doing something. Like, that's just impossible. So like, some of it's just like their anxiety coming out.

Mm-hmm. They, they want to be involved in it and like sometimes their heart is in the right place. Yeah. Um, just same thing with like public school teachers. Often the heart is in the right place. It's just like the methods are just a little bit, you know, off. 

Taylor: Yeah. 

Nick: But, 

Taylor: and, and so to that example, like. If I'm trying to coach defense, 'cause I often stay kind of backed by our goalie and the defenders.

I can't be like, Hudson, take four steps forward. Yeah. Two steps to the right. Mm-hmm. This, you know, I can't tell them where to go. Mm-hmm. But like prior to them getting out there in the real world. Mm-hmm. I can you just tell them like, here's the goal. You know what I mean? They can figure out how to mm-hmm.

Not the goal. Goal, you know what I mean? Here's your mission. And they figure out how to best complete that mission. And they'll see in real time if they have failed that mission and the ball gets past them, you know, then they realize, oh, I didn't do that right. But just explaining to them like, okay, you are [00:24:00] defense.

Don't let the ball get too close to the goalie. Like if it comes to close to you, kick it as far down as you can and, and that's the mission. And so they figure out how to do that if they aren't doing that. They fail. Mm-hmm. And they see the feedback on their own. I don't have to tell them, Hey, the ball got passed yet.

Like they know, you know? Um, and so like same thing with education. It really is just like the, the guiding thing. It's like, maybe explain what the mission is, right? Or help them figure out what the mission is. 'cause if we're looking at education, then they might have a, you know, it depends on what the application is.

But once they know the mission, let them find the way there. And we talked about math all the time, and remember when I told you that you hated that? I was trying to do tally marks for everything. For me, that's whatever, if that's the only way that my brain wants to do it, let me do it. But calculator, whatever, you know?

Mm-hmm. There's, there are ways to get to something and like you have to let someone get there on their own. 'cause sometimes they'll never see the way you're trying to get them to go. It has to be a personal thing. 

Nick: Mm-hmm. [00:25:00] And at this age, this is a great time for exactly what we're talking about. Like at some point, um.

I, I like in high school, like, do you have to be doing the best that you can do so that you are looking good for colleges or like maybe just being, you know, taken up by league right outta high school? At, at, at, at the age that we're working with. That, that pressure's not on it. Mm-hmm. You know, so it's just like, 

Taylor: yeah, we wanna win.

But it's mostly fun. Like if Yeah, we lost, they would still laugh. Like, it's not like, you know? 

Nick: Yeah. It just, it kind of, it, it just depends on like the, we're undefeated 

Taylor: to be clear. 

Nick: Um, yeah. So, so far it's so good. But, um, yeah, just like, it just the, the, the parameters with which you're like going into it, like, what's your mission?

You know, like what if you're a professional. League, you know, like you have, you don't have stockholders, you have like team owners, but, [00:26:00] um, you, you have some kind of, uh, mandate to, to win. Like, you know, you can't like, take people's feelings into account. Like we're not on like a everyone's personal life journey.

Like it's not really about that. Mm-hmm. But for kids it is. And people recognize it at that age, and then it gets. I don't know. Is it like about junior high when things get a little more serious? 

Taylor: It just depends. 'cause like some kids are already doing like travel leagues and like that kind of, 'cause your parents are investing in like trips to go do it.

It's like already there. It depends on how much pressure a parent really wants to put on it at what point. But yeah, not to say that it has to be pressure. Some parent like that can still just be fun. But like it, it depends on. I think it just depends on the parent and how they're like framing this. It's like you have to win, you know, if they mess up, they're don't eat dinner or whatever.

I don't know. But 

Nick: the, uh, isn't it the, the William Sisters? Venus and Serena? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. Um, so like there are some parents. Who kind of [00:27:00] going with what you were talking about earlier, just like you can be whatever you want to be, you do need, you know, like with the nature nurture kind of balance, you know, like you do need some molding, but like, if you get used to the stress, like being yelled at, having very critical takes on your every single micro movement, you know, like you're, you know, you may be like, you know, paying attention, um, at a very young age, at a very, um, fine grain of, uh, detail, you know.

How I feel like 

Taylor: that would cause widespread inflammation and anxiety and like, uh, what's it called? Uh, anyway, that sounds terrible. 

Nick: Yeah, but I mean, like, that's how you, you know, forge the, the athletes that we have, you know, at least, at least that's like one pathway to success that we have in America.

Right. Does that always, I wish we, I wish we like the, the sociological studies that I wish we had the numbers to, like how many people have tried that track in life and like it works, you know? And like, I know you, you don't wanna be [00:28:00] constrained by the numbers. Like you can do whatever you want to do. Like, I, I get where you're coming from, but like.

I would also like to see some numbers on this to like find out like what are realistic expectations? Like, so we have these anecdotes of, you know, the William Sisters, I think Tiger Woods' dad was pretty hard on him. You know, like trying to get him like, there, there are some parents of sports stars that like from a very young age are like, I'm gonna mold you into what you're gonna be.

Yeah. And it works. It's like, it's like 

Taylor: child actors, like, they just like if 

Nick: Yeah, 

Taylor: the parents early on can create the goal for the child and they can like. Frame this thing as like, that is good. This is what you're gonna do. And they can, yeah, they can create their whole reality. So like being a parent is a big responsibility.

Um, and I think a lot of people can take that the wrong way and just like put their own dreams that they failed at and put it on their children. Um, not to say that's what everyone's doing, but I don't know. I think that. I don't know. Did did Venus and Serena did they start off being like, mom and dad, I'm so interested in [00:29:00] tennis.

Can you please help me be a professional tennis player? You know, there's like a difference between that and them just like telling them that's what they're gonna be. I don't know. 

Nick: Yeah. And often people use sports as just like an entry into being competitive in general. Yeah. You know? And. And then, you know, like they're, like in Michael Jordan's case, like his parents weren't like really hard on it.

Like his, his dad seemed like critical of him, but like, not specifically with basketball. Mm-hmm. And like, apparently his brother was better than he was until like the, like senior year of high school or something like that. Mm-hmm. And then like, he suddenly like, grew six inches and like, he like, just like changed his mindset and all these things.

Um, there are diff, there are lots of different. Tracks of like how you get to the end point of, you know, being a professional athlete. However, those tracks are still somewhat limited. Um, 

Taylor: and earlier we were talking about, um, how so every child's different, right? And this is, this could be like a classroom concept.

I haven't like unpacked it yet, just if we did a four school, I don't know. But, um, on the field you have all these different personalities, all these [00:30:00] different skill sets, but like each one is important for, for different things. Like when you're coaching. You. Get to kind of, you're not moving the pieces, but you're like, you know, putting people where they wanna go.

And like, we prioritize it when someone's like, I wanna be here. Like, we have like our goalie. Mm-hmm. He's like, I wanna be goalie. Mm-hmm. And he seems really dedicated to it. He's got the gloves, he's like practicing every time we get, like he, he seems like he really wants to, no one else has been like, I want to.

So he's, it, you know, um, has, so like the number one priority is desire, like, and want to, 'cause that can, can lead everything else. And then skills. So we might have some that. Want to do a certain position and we let them do it long enough and if, um, they fail long enough and it looks like we need some help, you know, we switch someone else out.

You know, so it's like kind of we're balancing out both. Um, 

Nick: and yeah, I, it's like, and so there are the people who just volunteer what they want to do, and you know, like other people have wanted to be goalie, but they, they do it a couple times just like it. And just like basic, I think it is kind of our [00:31:00] responsibility at this age to like cycle everyone through all the positions.

Just, you know, like it's just exposure, you know, like. Even if you're like, we know that you're just a defensive player, and I say just defense is incredibly important. I, I, I just like, that's just, you know, 

Taylor: just meaning only I get it. Yeah. 

Nick: So, um, they're not merely defense, but, uh, so people need, or kids at that age, you know, when you're an adult, you understand some self limitations.

You don't need to try out all the positions, but when you're a kid. It's just, it's just nice to like try it all out, you know? And I think that is kind of a responsibility at this age for the coaches, just to, even if we, there's like, wanna win, you know, just it, it's still good to cycle 'em through 

Taylor: because, because these children, they're like, I wanna do this.

It's because they've had that experience somewhere else. Mm-hmm. They've either played soccer last year or they play it at home. Like they kind of have the experience first. So I, I, I put desire as number one, but really it's experience, then desire. 'cause you kind of have to experience it [00:32:00] first, like you're saying.

So if we try someone on goalie who's never been goalie. They might love it. Mm-hmm. They might be better than, you know, and, and so they have to try it first to see, and then it's kind of obvious to everyone at the same time. And that's kind of real, real life too. So it's kind of, it all syncs up like.

Except for, so I'll get to the, so if someone really likes being goalie Teens Arts, it's because they succeeded at it and everyone noticed and it's like a, yeah, that's good. That's a good pick. We all kind of collectively agree that person is good for goalie. Mm-hmm. Because it showed, you know. Yeah. But I was just thinking about how philosophy you, you did.

So like the first philosophy class I took, I failed. I was like, I wanna do this. So sometimes it doesn't go that way. It's not linear. You can love something that you're not good at, but because it has. Triggered in you this desire to become better at it. Mm-hmm. So we might have someone on the team who wants to be this position, 'cause they really like it.

They might not have that skill level yet. Mm-hmm. But they want to, so that skill level can rise to the want to. 

Nick: Yeah. And, and that's a, that's a life lesson that, that, that's great. Like, and [00:33:00] the. The great thing about sports at, at this age is that, you know, there is enough pressure so that like, if you're failing, like we're gonna kind of cycle you through.

And it's kind of understood thing. Just like if you repeatedly mess up, you know, like, we're not gonna yell at you, you're not gonna be banished, you know, like you're gonna 

Taylor: sit on the bench. 

Nick: You, you might get a little bit of a timeout or just like you cycle through to a different spot. Mm-hmm. So there are real world consequences.

Yeah. But you know, it's like a soft, you know, like this, this is how. Uh, bringing up or education should be, you know, it was like, you might end up being phenomenal at, you know, whatever you're trying to do right now, but realistically right now, like we need to look at the bigger picture and that which is winning and, and, and, and that's, that's a, that's just a good thing to know.

Just be like, okay, I'm going to, you know, earmark this, I'm gonna come back to this. Like, if I really want this, I'm gonna come back to this. And, and that, that fortitude. That long, that medium to long term fortitude is really useful skill to [00:34:00] have, and you need to practice that during your formative years so that you're better and better at that as you enter into the workforce or whatever you're gonna do.

But, um, but yeah, like I, and, and then, then working together, you know, like we have a defense squad who's kind of like settled into that position who just like we, we think that. This is a good spot for us. And then we have the offense squad who they, they feel like that's a good spot for them and it's like a self-reinforcing thing and like mm-hmm.

Where there, there's some kind of competition between the two. Um, so like, the offense sometimes like, ah, like when we ask, you know, if like, so what do we need to work on? Offense is like, oh, defense needs to work. And the defense is like, well, offense needs to work on, and that, that is a good, you know, healthy competi kind of competition thing.

And, um. And, and yeah, like I, um, if so, like Hudson is not like a, a rockstar, um, soccer player, but he's getting better mm-hmm. Than he was at the beginning of the season. And he is getting better, he's getting more [00:35:00] confidence. All of 

Taylor: them are, I mean, they played good today. Yeah. Yeah. 

Nick: So like Hudson's Hudson's big thing when he was playing earlier, uh, like when he was uh, you know, six, um, he was like, well, I don't know when it's my turn.

Mm. And we're like trying to explain over and over again, like there aren't really turns you just. You just go get it. You know? It is like, we're trying to ex explain, you know, just like, just at, at that age level, it just, it's whoever wants the ball the most. They like, you don't even have to have that much athletic ability.

Mm-hmm. You just, you just gotta go for it. And like, whoever's the least shy is gonna win. Yeah. And we're just like, just, just go was the most shy. Yeah. And he is like, well, I don't wanna hurt anyone's feelings. And Yeah. And so like, now it's, it's more serious. There are like more kids who are. And, and, and this is interesting.

Like it's now it's get to a point where like you need to have some athletic ability. You can't just not be shy and succeed. Like that's, that's not gonna cut it anymore. Like it's weeding people out. And now he's finding a position he really likes, uh, [00:36:00] being like the first line of defense on, on, uh, on the field.

And he's getting really good at it. 'cause he is like, this is, this is, this is the, these are the constraints, the parameters my job that I need. Yeah. Like this is, yeah, this is my role, like. It used to be just chaos. You know, when it was, you know, like when we're teaching coaching four year olds or five-year-olds.

Yeah. And everyone, 

Taylor: because they wouldn't let us, not that they wouldn't let us, but it's like, I think that that age group, they're like, there are no positions. Yeah. Everyone just goes back and forth. Right. And I kind of wish. I don't know if we should install that. Like with the U four, do you think it's like too early for, to make that clear?

Like, this is where you're gonna, this is your zone? Yeah. Well, the, 

Nick: the, the thing is, is like when you're, when they're that young, there's a lot of pressure from the parents and the grandparents that are, they're like, well, come on, you can't just keep 'em on goalie the whole time. Yeah. Like, let's, like give 'em exposure.

Like the whole point at that age is like, 

Taylor: just to run, 

Nick: stop being shy. Just, just go for the ball. Just do it, you know? Just like. Get out of your bubble. Mm-hmm. And just kick the ball. It nothing's gonna happen. You know, like, you're not gonna get hurt, you know, like, you're not gonna embarrass yourself. You might fall down trying to kick the ball, you know, just like, yeah, there'll be a silly [00:37:00] moment or whatever.

But like the, the whole point yourself out there. Yeah. So like, there's. I don't know, like a lot of this is implicit, you know, just like you get like a kind of a feeling from the crowd. Like some, sometimes like someone will murmur, you know, on the sidelines or, and then like 

Taylor: when you heard someone murmur, 

Nick: uh, well, yeah, like the, when, when the girls, uh, early on in the, the U eight league, um, she was on the bench a little bit too long and she was like, you know, like trying to talk to her mom and she was looking kind of sad, like.

There are, there are some things that you just pick up on. You're like, oh, man. Yeah. Like, I, I didn't forget you, but like I was focused on Yeah, yeah. You know, this other stuff for too long and like, I do need to get you back in the game and mm-hmm. There, there are just like some social cues that you need to pick up on as like a coach of this age group.

Yeah. That makes sense. Um, there's, because 

Taylor: it's strategy and like tending to people's emotions all at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. It's like such a, such a fun challenge. Yeah. I like it. 

Nick: Yeah. Yeah. We've really liked coaching. That's been, that's been fun. Mm-hmm. 

Taylor: You know, they're looking for, you ate baseball coaches.

Nick: Yeah. [00:38:00] Baseball's just really slow. Yeah. It's not the same sport at all, but yeah, we, we really like soccer. There's a lot of action. There's a lot, there's a lot that you can do, you know? Yeah, that's true. Especially for this age. 

Taylor: Closing question to you has coaching soccer. So you and I have long had this thing where we make fun of.

Like football and football fans and stuff. Mm-hmm. Like, it's just like we don't get like watching sports. Does coaching sports and this conversation give you like more of an appreciation for televised professional sporting events? 

Nick: No. Uh, no. I, well it's, it, it's, it's our approach to life. So like. Like we were talking about, like we're tending to the emotional needs of everyone involved.

It is like, that's, that's not what you're doing in the NFL, you know? It's just like, yeah, you're not involved like, as a coach. Like, it's just, it's just fun. It's just like, I, I love seeing the kids succeed and like you have minor failures and minor setbacks, but like. And like [00:39:00] that, that feeling when you, like, you, you, you embarrass yourself and, but you get back up and you try again and it's beautiful.

You know, like, it just, like, I love it. I love seeing, you know, like my own child do it. I love seeing other people's children do it. It's, it's awesome. It's a, it's a great feeling and it's like, it's, um. 

Taylor: So, yes. Soccer, no football. Would you watch televised soccer? 

Nick: No. 

Taylor: Okay. 

Nick: Um, yeah, I, so like the, the people who are really into whatever sport that they're into, like there's, there's the narrative aspect that like you and I are talking about, like it's, it is not, I feel like it's less, less deep.

Um. The people who follow, uh, major League sports, um, they, they're interested in the biographies of all these different players. They're interested in, like every injury they've ever had, where they went to college, where they were, were in high school, what their background's, like, what are their political views, what kind of music are they into you?

Just like, and, and that makes sense. Like you're invested in this character. You want [00:40:00] them, you wanna flesh out the, the hero that you're looking up to. I don't really care about any of that stuff. I just don't. Um, but at, at the, just, just kids, you know, at like a community local level, just that's the way to go.

That's just like, it just, it, it, it doesn't matter, you know? So like, I, I don't know what these kids' political views are. There's not like a direct corollary to what I'm talking about, but, um. You see enough of, uh, their personal growth and development and their character and their personality in, you know, the, the limited time windows that we have with them.

And it's just, it's just, it's a fun, engaging thing for, for the whole community and that, and that's why it's popular, you know? Yeah. And that, and that's why it should still happen. And I wish more of those good qualities, um, were part of, you know, like the public education system. 

Taylor: Yeah. Wow. And, 

Nick: and it was like, and maybe part of it is that there's a community there.

A novel concept. There's, there's just like this, [00:41:00] this, this framework within the, the public school system is just like, there's one person and then there's like 30 students and there's not a lot of interaction with your grandparents and your parents, and your aunts and uncles and your little brothers and sisters and your, you know, the, the, the, the big brother, the big siblings are, you know, going off to college and they went through this rite of passage and like, maybe they're the same coaches.

There's crossover, there's. Interconnectedness with your community. Like that's why it's beautiful. Mm-hmm. That's why the whole thing is awesome. You know, it is like, I, I don't like the, the travel league. I think it's, it's taking a lot of those elements out of it, and it's just putting in the bad elements of like, pressure, pressure, pressure at like a really young age.

And, you know, it's just like. Um, I, I I'm very glad that we live in a small town. Yeah. And we have a small community, you know, soccer league. Nice. Oh gosh. Nice. My gosh. On Tom's 

Taylor: team, his, his friend Addie, I love it. Like, she, she has her parents, their parents parents. Mm-hmm. Like, and, and like all our [00:42:00] cousins, and it just, she has like 30 people there for her.

Yeah, right. It's so cute. It's so sweet. But it is, it's so fun. 

Nick: There's a, uh, I, there's a story from. So, not that he wrote, but a story, uh, that I think he wrote in a letter. But, um, CS Lewis, he, um, used to go on walking tours around, uh, Europe with, uh, two of his friends. I think they were, uh, somewhat colleagues, you know, like also professors or whatever.

And, um, they, uh, were really close, you know, and I don't know if they're best friends or whatever, but very close. And, um, one of them died and, um. He, uh, CS Lewis was writing to the other friend, the surviving friend, and talking about, um, how it's almost like, um, he lost two friends in that moment because he lost the friend that died, but he also lost when you have all three friends together, their relationship.

Yeah. The relationship. [00:43:00] You, you bring out different people, bring out different aspects of who you are, different parts of your personality, right? Yeah. It's the same thing with like the dynamics with sports, with the coach, all the different interactions with the, the people, your family on the sideline, it's if you let that stuff into your life, it can be a more interconnected, more meaningful, more coherent life.

You know, I just. But, but you need to be open to that. Like, like with, with like the travel leagues, you start shutting some of that stuff down, like the people who are committed to traveling with those teams. That's, that's, that's a big commitment. And go, you, but you know, like your extended family's probably not gonna show up.

And that's, that's the beautiful part of rural living. Like your family, your extended family, and your friends are all there and it's, um, and you have those memories going forward. 

Taylor: Oh, I don't know why that serious CS Lewis thing got me. 

Nick: It's, it's a great, [00:44:00] I I it's a great story. It's a, it's a great thing to remember.

Mm-hmm. Um, uh, just about the human experience. Yeah. And you can't take things for granted. 

Taylor: I don't know. I, I love watching our boys play together. Mm-hmm. And like how there's a lot of fighting, but you know what I mean? Like, especially as they get older and like seeing them like get along and just like. Me observing their relationship is like, it's so different than just me with one-on-one and, um, very special.

But yeah, I, I, I see what he's trying to paint and how you're bringing it back to like the whole soccer team or the whole community. It's like the more we're together, the more we are. Mm-hmm. That's so, so cool. Yeah. 

Nick: Yeah. Yeah. And, and that's, you know, like the. The coaches are more meaningful, the teammate relationships are more meaningful when you do the huddle and you, you know, whatever your team name is, it doesn't matter.

But like going through the ritual P practices and yeah. Um, you see each other in [00:45:00] Walmart, um, I. That, that stuff means something, you know, just like if someone I saw in Walmart again today. Oh yeah. Yeah. If your coach remembers your name and you see them Yeah. Outside of that, it just like, it just lights. It means something.

Yeah, it does. You know, and, uh, it makes you feel good about yourself. 

Taylor: Mm-hmm. I told her again. She did a really good kick. Yeah. Really good kick today. Yeah. Thanks for coaching with me. 

Nick: Oh yeah, no 

Taylor: problem. No problem. I love it. Love you, 

Nick: I love you. 

Taylor: Uh, if you have a moment to leave a review, if you haven't already, we would really appreciate that no matter what platform you're listening to.

Um, yeah. Thanks so much for being here. 

Nick: See you on the next one.